The Duratus Mind - Chief Inspector Ed Anrude - UK Armed Policing

Chief Inspector Ed Anrude has spent nearly 20 years at the tip of the spear with regard to UK policing and access to police leaders with his experience is rare.  Ed had the unique experience of being the on-the-ground commander during the abhorrent Westminster Bridge attack in 2017 which killed 5 people and injured over 50 more.   

Ed talks with Gaz about all things leadership, role models, taking opportunities, how to deal with difficulty as a leader and what to do when it seems everything is going wrong - enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Okay, today everyone on the Durators Mind podcast, we've got Ed Ann Rude, who's senior uh Chief Inspector in Counterterrorism Police, overseeing police operations and is incredibly experienced. A pleasure to have you on here today, Ed. Really looking forward to that one.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Hey you doing, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah, really good. Thanks, Ed. Um, we first met on one of our deliveries to your work. Well, I've we've I've done a fair bit of work with your group, your counter-terrorism uh specialist fire as officers' groups, and our workshops were around stress, resilience, they're around uh managing ourselves better. Um, and definitely want to scratch into some of this today, but also Ed, as a as a senior leader in the police, I I'm really keen to unpick some of your your thoughts and insights are specifically around managing yourself, but then managing and leading others today. So, like I said, mega looking forward to it. Thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Welcome, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

You're a busy man. Uh, I believe you're on call as well. So we'll uh we'll see how this goes. But uh, we're we're people that are used to being agile in in everything we do, I guess. So all good. So, Ed, for the people listening, um we joked before the start of this. I'm um I'm expecting very few people know your name. Um, it's not something that people of your position in the police um are typically public faces, far from it. So, do you mind telling us a little bit about your background and specifically what it is you do in the police, you know, for people to understand?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Sure. So uh my name's Ed Anruud. Uh I've been in the police coming up for 20 years, joined back in 2003. Um I uh grew up in South London, um, and ended up um really wanted to join the Marines. Uh at the time I I uh I went on a um a uh a visit to uh Commando Training Centre, I believe you believe it very well. And uh yeah, know it very well. And um when I was 14 and uh walked in after that, uh dropped my bags and uh told my mum dad I wanted to join the Marines. And uh they they were to their horror, uh they said, right, just give it a little bit of time, maybe go through school and do a uni. So um I did all that. My mum was like, look, you you're on the trajectory to do uni, so go and do uni um and uh see how you feel after that. And um I'm unfortunate I dipped the AIB uh as part of the sort of commission process, and um I didn't go back. And uh a friend of mine who was in the reserves, Marine Reserve said, Well, why don't you try um the police? And I hadn't really thought about it then. And um I was working for the home office um temping for them, and it was a bit of a a non-starter job of what I was doing. So I ended up applying for the police on the off chance. Uh two weeks later I got um invited to interview, and then uh a month later I was in. That was it, and it was like rabbit in the headlights. Um, couldn't believe I was there. Um did the 18 weeks at Hendon, as it was then, um, then got kicked out onto Lewishamborough for three years on the response team, which was very, very wild. We had some incredible leaders, but some um very young plea PCs with us as well. And it was great fun going to work. It wasn't like going to work, it was like going to see your friends and and stopping bad people. That that was it. Um, yeah, and then I went to the territorial support group for five years in London, which is the Mets public order tier one um operations, and that was great and made friends for life there. Again, it was like turning up, seeing your friends, it wasn't really feeling like work. And then uh I ended up moving towards the armed um policing side um over first within what was CO19 at the time. Um, I spent a couple of years there and then moved to sort of the covert world um for a bit and got promoted and in the greatest uh uh of traditions had to go back to do the general uh police stuff. And uh then I came back as an inspector and I qualified as a counter-terrorist specialist for arms officer in 2018. Um and then I was doing that up until January this year where I was the chief inspector, uh head of operations for um CTSFOs uh in the Met. And that that kind of brought me to where I'm now.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Amazing. We expect children to know what they want to do when they grow up. We often a question we ask, and you know, I'm still asking myself that question every now and again as well, right? Um, what I want to be when I grow up. But um, with with kids, you know, and it's I listened to your um story there, and what I hear is you know, people think they've got to be really clear in what it is they're trying to achieve, and you've done incredibly well within the police. Again, I I I work with the police enough to know anyone reaching chief inspector, it's sort of top one percent of people um only make chief inspector. So, you know, you've done incredibly well in the police so far, and it sounds like it was never this real clear goal. Um, you uh you describe it in a way that you almost fell into it. Is that is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, it is. It was enough that uh when I was growing up, I never ever considered it. Um I I the same, so I'll I'll say the same about promotion at the time. I so the first rung on the ladder in the police is to sergeant. Um and at the time I I did the the end the exam, you have to do a legal exam. And I did the exam purely because everyone in my TSG unit was doing it. And I thought, well, do you know what? It's a tough exam. We all study buddies, why don't I just do it? And then I've got in the back pocket to say if I want to do it, and I did it, passed it, and I thought, well, I'm quite happy with doing what I do, and I I really like the moon firearms and then the covert side, and I never thought about using it, and then I um things sort of changed at work, and I thought, you know what? I've got that, I'm gonna go for it. And I ended up that was not me ever thinking that I'd I'd ever go down that route. And then I ended up on a fast track to inspect it, which I never thought I'd I never ever thought I'd I'd want to do, and um yeah, I ended up as uh an inspector, really enjoyed it, and um, and then someone thought, Oh, you thought about doing becoming a chief inspector? I was like, Well, I've not really thought about it, but yeah, it makes sense and it looks pretty good. So I ended up doing it. So I never like you say, I've I've never really gone, I want like I want to be this in this many years. I've I've not really thought like that. I've I've kind of opportunities come across, and I've gone, right, okay, I'm gonna have a go at that.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

There's there's there's something in that one on pick, but so chances are you're future commissioner, right? You've never considered it, but uh no, never.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

I'm I'm good, they can keep that. I'm all right.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

We rode scratch too hard on that one, but no, I I relate to a lot of what you're saying again. Uh promoted through my old organization, leadership and the next rank up was never something I sought. Um I definitely and this is this is in line with what I want to talk about. It's almost that that responsibility to look around and say, well, if not me, then who? And if it and if other people around you are promoting or they're they're they're in positions of leadership and you're the more experienced, you're the more um or the right person for that job, then it's it's the right thing to in our old organization or my old organization, your current organization, the best people fill those roles, right? And it's almost you know, don't put it on yourself to make that decision. It's you know, we go to boards, we go to interview panels, and people make these decisions for us, and that's useful, right? And so it's it's humbling in many ways, fair to say.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

It it is, yeah. I mean, uh I I'd look around and I I'd I'd think, right, okay. Well, uh, I I was very lucky in the in the police so far that I've had some exceptional leaders, and um it's one of those where I look around and I was like, right, I want to be like that guy because he's all over it. It's one of the coolest guys under pressure, or coolest women under pressure. They're really good at what they do, they're all over their admin. They're just really it just comes easy. It looks like it's really easy, even in the most stressful environments. I want to be like that, and then you you sort of channel yourself like that, and you end up then with those opportunities like you say for promotion, people looking at you going, oh, you should do that, and um, and and then you end up doing it. So, yeah, the role modeling, I think, is a big thing in leadership. You I think uh everyone is looking for for role models in society, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

You we all do completely agree, and just while we're on that, again, uh I didn't expect to go here so soon. Those those role models that you had and how they looked very cool under pressure, um, how did that translate to when you're the person in that position and chaos is ensuing around you? Um how does that work for you? Is that is that something you felt inside that you were representing that, or was it was it a different experience?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, so um throughout my sort of career there's there's been points where everything's coming on top, and you can imagine um everything's really um really, really bad. And um it was uh so I had uh a meeting with Cres of the Dick, the former commissioner at the time, and we we spoke about this very subject. And her in her moment when everything comes on top, she goes, What would my dad do? What would you know, what would that was her thing. She goes, What would my dad say? What would he do? Or my mum say. So um for me, I wouldn't necessarily do what my dad does because he's got some um slightly outside views, but um uh I'd I'd look at the people who've gone before me and the people I started out with, and I'd be like, right, well, if uh on I'll name one on Chris, um if Chris can lead us through that incredible sort of challenging experience, I can do this, and what would he do? Uh and it it's things like and you take a almost step back from what is going on, um, whereas everyone's very tunnel focused on what is going on in front of them. You take a step back and go, right, well, what what are my options? What what would they do? What would that what can I do? Um, so yeah, it's very much that sort of you look at what other people have done and what you can do in a similar situation.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, exactly. And I think most people, most leaders that I've spoken to, um it never feels as comfortable as the perception of what it feels like when they're in that role, there's always pressure, and that pressure creates uncertainty, that uncertainty causes nerves, it causes you know, various different uh physiological responses in us that we're we're just like oh man, I think other people would what what you know we catastrophize, we concern ourselves with problems. I think that's the world we get used to. Again, just before we uh dive into that, just what was your what was your kind of you know, you've you've chosen a pretty challenging career, you know. You for for one that you didn't necessarily aim at the police, you never considered it, but within the within that time, you've continually uh chosen uh some would argue the more difficult path. I certainly would look at it that way. Um have you thought about that at all? Have you thought about why those decisions within your career you've you've chosen that that those challenges over maybe a more comfortable route?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

I think it's it's not to say so. I'd I'll take it from like when I started on response team, I was challenged, but I wasn't challenged enough. Now that's not to say that the work they're doing wasn't crucial and it was hard, just for me, I needed more. And um, I've always done like four years max in a certain role, and then I've had I've got the itch, and then I've got to do something else to challenge myself a different way. And it was the same with the territories work group with the public order. I mean, I I make friends with life, I did some incredible things. Um, you know, I I couldn't believe that I joined the police and do those sort of things. And it, you know, I I really made a difference in in what I was doing, but then I thought, right, I need to challenge myself in another area. Uh, and it just felt like I want to better myself in things that I don't know about. So I was like, right, okay, so I'll go to the firearms, specialist firearms, and I'll do what I can now. And I was like, right, okay, I've not really done a lot around leadership, so I'll go for promotion. Um and yeah, it's it's kind of just spiraled from then on in the opportunities have arisen and have gone up. That's that's a weakness. So I'm gonna have a go at that. Um, and you know, if I'll if I if I fail, I fail. But you know, um it if you know the biggest regret is not not really um not giving it a go in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't couldn't agree more, and I think that's one thing that people that that paralyzes them. That you're you recognize opportunity despite maybe getting feedback that you're not of the standard, but that doesn't prevent you taking those steps towards doing that because that uh looks purposeful, it looks like it's going to stretch you, it looks like it'll be that challenge is is interesting to you. And and I think that's quite a common thread um with a lot of the people that you work with, that I used to work with, again, the mindsets of the people. And uh you said it earlier about there was there was opportunities, and you you're somebody that just maybe takes opportunities and investigates them. Is that is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, definitely. I mean, don't get me wrong, not all opportunities lead to you know something great, they they might end to a dead end, so they they they lead to you know something that you don't want to pursue in the end, or or something like that. I I think you know these opportunities they it's not like I was handed them, it's a case of you just through your your day-to-day business or you seek out um opportunity, you speak to people and uh you make friends with people, and you're like, oh, right, okay. Um, and an example was um when I first joined the police, I was a public order medic, and I was for about 15 years, and that was always considered certainly just within the police, certainly not outside of that. Like one of the toughest courses, I think it had like a 70% failure rate on the first day because it was quite physical in the police terms and quite a lot of medical knowledge. And the sort of the public order train, they prided themselves on that failure rate because they were like, right, we're we're sort of an elite almost within this, and we we pride ourselves that we have high standards. Now, to get on that course, you had to have done where I was, you've had to have done five years. I got offered that course within a year and a half, and it was only because um someone who was who'd done that course I was paired up with in a car, talked to me about it, and I was like, right, I'm gonna find out about that. So I I kind of uh went upstairs with a bit of a ballsy attitude to the people who um do the do the list. And I said, I would like to be considered for this course. And they were like, How long have you been here? And I was like, year and a half, and they almost laughed me out of the office. And I said, Um, well, could I just put my name at the bottom of a list? And they said, it's a very long list. I said, That's okay, just put my name on the bottom. And um a month later I get a phone call because the other seven people had failed. Um, they'd not made it past the first day. And they went, Right, um, there's a course coming up. We don't expect you to pass. Uh there you go. Um, get on it. And uh I did it, uh, I passed it. I came back and I walked in the same office. I went, Oh, um, because I need to order the kit that you get. And I I walked in and I went, Oh, can I order some kit? And they went, Well, you've got to pass the course first, and I'll just kind of pass the bit of paperwork to them. I said, Yeah, I've done it. And they were like, All right, okay. And um, it it was very much like, you know, always be the underdog, you know, silence the doubters, and uh, yeah, so grabbing this opportunity and just going with it. And if I failed, I failed, but um, yeah, it was um it was nice to prove them wrong.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Absolutely, and use absolutely no, and I can I can I'm I'm well familiar with crucible events or crucible courses that have this incredibly challenging failure rate that you know is almost held as a bit of a as a as a as a as a highlight of the course. Well, look, look how many people fail this, right? Why and it's and it's it's so strange really that we would do that. But naturally, the people that have walked through that course it it bonds them together as well, right? And so it gives them this unity, and there's there's there's something in that. Um what was it in in those moments? That's a good example, in those moments where you know the the overwhelming weight of potential failure, what was it that the attributes you think you had to demonstrate to yourself and to others that you had that walked you towards um success?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I think um to for for there it was that kind of so for that course and others, it was that kind of um right, I'm gonna completely apply dissolve myself into this whole process. So I'm gonna massively just own it. I'm gonna love it. I'm gonna love every step, the worst bits, the best bits. I'm gonna absolutely love this, the process that I'm going through at the moment. No matter how painful it is, no matter how much I've got study, I'm just 100% gonna leave it all there. Because if I can walk away, if I fail and I walk away, I can say, Well, I left everything in there. I I did absolutely everything I could, and I loved, I loved the I loved the process. And if I didn't meet the standard, I didn't meet the standard. But I think it for that, um, yeah, it was it was massively just kind of own, just love it, get involved in it, totally absorb it, and be just just absolutely live it every day. Um, certainly on my CTSFO course, um, because it's so long, it's six months. Uh well, within the police, that's quite long, not within your world, but um with within the police, you know, that that 18 plus weeks, you you like um um you you almost you just you just love it and uh and like you say it bonds people and you become part of a team, uh, and you you can second guess people's actions after a while because you've spent so long with them, you know how they're gonna react to certain things, and you you know, you don't even have to talk sometimes in some of these situations, you know what what people are automatically going to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Um so yeah, yeah, you get to know you get to know people so well, don't you? I'm really lucky I get to speak at the start of uh certainly one of the national CTSFO uh courses, the ARVs that have volunteered for it, and I get to speak to them on day one because you know it's the start of a six-month course, a long course. It is exactly the same as you know what we used to do, uh the selection process. And you know, uh it's overwhelming if you look at the length of course that you're potentially under assessment, you're being scrutinized at least every single day for all of that time. That's intense. People talk about job interviews where there's three or four stages, right? It's like six months of daily um scrutiny. That's intense if you look at it over the long full picture. Well, actually, you can only deal, and this is one of the things we talk about, you can only deal with it on the day-to-day basis. What can you do today, and how can you focus on your task today? What is the instructor's telling you today, or what have you learned and uh taken on from the days before and how to apply it to today's activity, not concerning with what that means for the months going forward, because it would just overwhelm you, and that's yeah with some of the problems that you're used to dealing with in your in your current job now. The the problems are immense, and looking at them full scale, you know, it must be super intimidating.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

It so yeah, it is, but it's it's like everything, is it? If you've got a massive problem when you can break it down into bite-sized chunks, you're like, right, I'm gonna get to there, and then I'm gonna make it. I mean, it got it got so long, some of it got so uh quite arduous for the for the guys and girls on the on my course. So we go, right, we're gonna make it to lunchtime, is that make it to the next meal time, we're gonna make it to dinner. And then I said, right, and then because I was the senior student, because I was the inspector on the course, I'll be like, right, make it to dinner, we're going out, and we're gonna go to Nando's or something like that. Something really mundane, but it just takes you out of that world, and it's something to look forward to. So you're like, right, I'm gonna absolutely storm it till till um dinner, and then we're going out. So um little goals, little things like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Nando's is not a little goal, right? That's a good price. So I love a bit of Nando's cheeky Nando's, but it's just interesting in the jungle. Again, not that we're able to every single evening, but um, sorry, go to somewhere most evenings, but that certainly we'd sit around and have these conversations and talk about the meal we're gonna have when we get out. And it's almost setting these goals that just visualize visualization now, right? And it's almost you know, make an or shortening that time frame. So buy into that completely. Um, the the course, CTSFO course, you know, it is a challenging course. I don't necessarily want to go into the detail of it. Again, there's a lot of stuff out there in the public forums now and that people can um find. The point is that it's challenging, and one of the things that I concern myself with these days is the amount of information that's out there that people can find before they go in because it doesn't help them to navigate the uncertainty that the actual job uh and future jobs demands of them. So actually sitting in that uncomfortable space, uh almost percolating in that uncertainty, things out of your control, thinking, well, okay, how do I deal with this problem? That's and what's tomorrow going to bring? What's the future? That's the stuff I think that people need to really get uh skilled at. So your the actual job that you pass the course for, just you know, you're on call now, you know, like and not on call for you know a meeting, it's on call for a potentially a serious event that you'll be in charge of and commanding. And so, like, can you explain a little bit for people that the actual job that you did in the early days, at least in CTSFO world, just how fun but challenging that potentially was? What you know, how did that how did that play out?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Sure. So I I was an inspector um when I when I passed that course and I I immediately became one of sort of uh I oversaw two CTSFO teams at the time, um that um and the day-to-day running of their sort of welfare because we're all human beings at the end of the day, their training, um, skill sets, etc., and also operations. So I was also uh an advisor, tactical advisor in a number of operations, anything high risk, so going from terrorism through to kidnap through to And you know, you you think about like Remembrance Day, the the sort of uh sort of specialist uh firearms pl plan around that and Nottinghill Carnival, which I kind of um still have carried uh for quite some time, uh which is uh challenging in itself. Um but yeah, so I I would do that day to day. Uh I would also um be something called what we call a tactical firearms commander on the ground. So um much like I was at the Westminster attack um when I was with the armed response vehicles in a sort of a more covert, more high-risk operations, if we were providing security to the president of the United States or something like that, I would be on the ground uh with my with my teams, um, ensuring that we are working with the equivalent the Americans have uh to safeguard movement of the president and the first lady. Um and also I'd I'd be in charge of a number of projects because much like yourself in your old world, um uh the the people that I had are constantly looking to chase excellence. And they they are it's encouraged this innovation to uh massive encourage it everywhere I go to to look at what we could do better. And is is it doesn't need to be, you know, we don't have to buy the new newest, shiniest thing out there to do that, but you know, processes, tactics, methodology, what what can we do to make ourselves better? So those um people, it could be it might not be uh a sergeant, it might be a PC who's just joined you's got a great idea, then we'll we'll have a look at that and they'll they'll I'll encourage them to go away, find out about it, and come back to me and we'll we'll sort of do it from there. So that was my day job.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

We talk about that all the time, just touching on what you just said there. Um psychological safety comes up a lot in some of the organizations that we work with and creating an environment where people are prepared to speak up with, hey, what about this for an idea? You know, uh, you know, as a as a leader yourself in those organizations, you know, I know from speaking to you, but also from my own experiences that you won't always have the best answer. And so, although our organizations are very hierarchical, the military and the police, when things are chaotic and things are happening, we have to flatten that organizational and the people with it might be the newest people, but if they've got the best ideas, they're still the best ideas. And I think humility as a leader to take on that best idea and run with that is taking in all your years of experience of saying, actually, you know, this is a great idea, let's go with that. I mean, um yourself as you as you sit in those uh leadership positions, you know, how do you uh how do you you know use your experience? How do you empower the people around you? What are you what are your kind of go-to things that you your attributes I'd say that you you you lean on to communicate those to the teams that you're working with?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I'd I'd I'd be I'd I'd very much um so if if I had an idea or I need something wants to look at something, I'd I'd go and speak to people and you know we'd we'd have parades uh pretty much like you, I'm sure you did in your previous career, and everyone would be able to talk. Um, you know, it's it's sergeant's PCs, anyone could come and come and talk to me anytime. Um there's always an open door policy. Um there still is um with a lot of units in the police where anyone of any rank can come and speak to someone um uh if they've got an idea or they've got concern or or something like that. And I I think it's that it's that nurturing. It's like right, okay, I'm I need this. I'm gonna give you the autonomy. So I'm gonna give you a bit of um authority here to go out and come uh essentially I'm putting trust in that person to go out, have a look, represent maybe the organization, uh, and make an approach around bits of kit. So it might be you know new types of body armor, it might might be um you know, new new new glasses, it might be something else, hearing or or weapons or or just a bag or something like that. Um, but I'm putting my trust in that person. And you know, um I I think there's very much we're all on first name terms, which in a lot of the other police units you don't normally get. So even at Spectre level, it was I was on first name terms in within our own circles, outside those circles. I think uh it was always um you know, it was the the the the necessary um uh the necessary sort of uh terms of use, so I'm on. But um certainly within my in my circles, it was always first name terms because it made me more approachable. I wouldn't necessarily wear uniform all the time. So in the rest of the police, everyone wears uniform, and that straight away creates a bit of a divide. Um yeah, but um you know I wouldn't wear uniform, so uh it I'd look like well, I'd I'd probably be a little bit smarter than they they would be because they're they're going and running out on jobs. Um, but um, and I had to go and meet um fairly senior people, but um again, I'm not in uniform. Um another one that was really good, so um uh that I had was that that I found the best place I got the most honest conversations from the people uh at all levels was the gym. So uh we uh I mean Ryan who I spoke about earlier for this, uh he always told me no rank in the gym. It's very, very true. There's no rank in the gym unless you're a PTI and you are God. Um but um I'm not I'm definitely not a PTI. So um uh I go in the gym and um we used to, where I where I used to work, we used to have a big board saying who the senior leadership team members were, and you used to have our pictures on the board and our names so that everyone knew who was who, and that was anyone from an arm response vehicle to an armorer to to you know police staff to anyone in that building knew who I was. Now, when I took up my role as sort of the chief inspector, um the you have to have an official photograph taken, and mine was delayed, so I couldn't get mine for some time. So my name was up there, but no one knew what I looked like. So I go in the gym and no one knew who I was apart from my own teams, and again, they're calling me by my first name. So others are hearing that thinking we can't be that important because they're calling them by his first name, and I get some of the most honest conversations uh and be able to support people in ideas, and they just speak freely and fluidly about things that were right, things that were wrong, and I take those back and action them and think, how can we make that better? How can I help that individual or those teams? And uh yeah, I don't know if it's like a common ground of just suffering in a gym or whatever, but you got really honest conversation, and the moment they put my picture up on that board, all those people stopped talking to me. Yeah, and uh I was like, all right, okay. And I think there was that it felt like there was a divide then, um, not from my teams, but from others who didn't really know who I was. Um, and it was a shame because overnight it stopped, and uh, but it was the best way of kind of chatting to people.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Uh I love I love all that. There's there's so much there. There's there's your your willingness to give people autonomy. Uh I again I've got my own experiences, the the difference in my experiences from being in the marines to being in special forces. The day that I turned up in special forces as a as a badged operator, as a as a I was given responsibility. My leadership responsibility was started on day one. You start developing that early, you don't sort of wait for people to uh hit a position uh a specific uh rank to then right now. Leadership starts. That doesn't work like that, it starts as early as possible. Um, but then also that openness, the need for communication, the need for um trust. You know, we in in SF, we you know, part of the ethos is this classless society. Yes, there's rank, yes, the people have positions, yes, people have leadership responsibilities, but there's a classless society which basically means trust. And it means, hey, we've got a voice, everyone's got a voice, we've got we're here to learn from each other, no one person's got the answers, and again, that's what I'm hearing. And I think people get wrapped around rank. Again, my old world, as you know, we didn't walk around in uniform very often. Um, uh, didn't know where our uniform was most of the time, um, but uh sort of certainly ceremonial uniform versus uh um the day-to-day uh clothes and et cetera, that we you know just created this unity and actually this this freedom to communicate. And again, that first name terms with the commanding officer, first name terms with your leadership all the way through. And like that doesn't work for every organization because they need and these crucible, difficult selection processes. Part of that I I think is uh finding people that uh can that have the self-discipline to understand the boundaries. So you know, just giving everyone f this freedom of manoeuvre that isn't good for the military. I'm sure it's not good for the police because people would give them a give them an inch to take a yard, right? And so they would people would milk it. But when you've got disciplined teams that are very purposeful, clear in what they're trying to achieve and understand the rules, but don't need to be constantly reminded of the rules. I think that's where the differences lie. And I think that in some ways comes with a level of maturity. Typical age in CTSFOs is somewhat older than the rest of the police. Is that is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah, well, it's getting younger. Um, but um by necessity, yeah, by necessity. Yeah, um, yeah, absolutely. You know, people who join there stay there for quite a long time. Um, and there definitely is that trust, like you say, that that trust element um sort of ingrained, and it wouldn't work for the rest of the rest of the police. And there's some specialist units that probably do other specialist units that probably do first name terms, etc. Um, but I I've done it where I've been working with those teams and then I've gone and done an operation with general frontline policing, and it's it's a bit of a culture shock for me because everyone's calling you, sir, everyone's afraid to move, you know, not afraid to move, that's the wrong thing. Every everyone's um afraid to maybe do something in case you know you haven't authorized it. Uh, and that they're very much like rigid is is in in sort of that that command structure. Whereas, yeah, when then you go back to the C SFO teams and they're all right, how you doing? And uh hi, yeah, well good.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Um, so um, yeah, it's uh there's a there's there's probably a lot of business people, uh, people in business should say that are thinking, well, that that's just my normal, and actually it's the police and the military that have these real clear rank titles, and to call someone sir, you know, that that doesn't connect. I think in our world, the you know, the time that we'd spent there, it it there is this definite divide, and it's it's useful for those organizations. I think for people listening that maybe work outside of those uh more regimented structures, I think that's like, well, this is normal jogging. But I think the common ground is this need for the senior leaders to walk the shop floor, as they say, and to be involved in their people and find those areas, whether it's the gym, whether it's the canteen, whether it's um social events where your people can just know the real you in the gym. 100 kilograms is a hundred kilograms, no matter what rank you wear, right? And so there's there's humility needed when you as you know when you're in a uh space like that. So I think it's finding those opportunities to to speak to your people on on a just a more normal human level. That's that's how that's how we're well set up and designed to do, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, uh absolutely. I mean, it wasn't just the gym. So I made a point of going and sitting in the team rooms and having lunch and just uh with whoever was in there, I'd take my lunch and go and sit in there with them. Um I didn't have to, but you know, I'd I'd go and do that just to again get on this conversation, strike up conversation, see, you know, it could be anything about there could be one person in there and then maybe having a bit of a tough time, you know, with home because they're away so much or or with with work and stuff like that. And you just get chatting to people. Um the the I'd go do a lot of the training. Um, so I made it my sort of I made it purposefully a point that I would turn up to every training day that my teams went on and some other teams went on, and I take part, uh, mainly because it's good fun, as you know. Um, so it's it's it's great fun. And also because then you get in those breaks and in that sort of thing, not only your team seeing, well, if he's doing it, I should be definitely doing it. If he's he's down here doing that, if the if the boss is down here doing it, then why am I not doing it? And it kind of it kind of spurs people on, and then also you see so around certain tactics and stuff where there's problems, and then the PCs, the operators will go, well, we thought about doing this, or was that actually that's a cracking idea? Why don't you go away, find out about that, come back to me, come back to me with a sort of idea solutions, and we'll take it from there. Um, uh yeah, it's it it definitely breaks down that barrier, but at the same point, it like you say, there has to be discipline, and and there is because they see you doing it, and then on their on training exercises, and they'll be like, right, I'll take command today, I'll I'll have a go, I'll I'll do the command element of this this exercise and and stuff like that. And it it just sort of it shows them that you you haven't stopped learning, you're still learning. Um, and but again, like I said, those on this conversation can just flow for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Actions speak louder than words, and what again, two pillars of uh uh leadership understanding is is accountability and authenticity. And so what you're describing there, you know, you when you're good doing the training, and there's nothing worse in my mind than a leader, a commander that directs training but doesn't get involved, and and there's a time and a place, I'm not saying they should be involved in everything, but when you uh live in it and when you get involved in the training, people absolutely see your authenticity that you can do it. Now, that you can do it also is a challenge because as you get a little bit older, then sometimes, especially some of the activities that you and I used to maybe have to do or still do for yourself, um, it becomes more challenging. And so, but that's a good challenge to have, right? Just to be able to hold yourself accountable openly in front of uh your organization, in front of your teams. And that just for me, that just engenders trust, and that that's what we're ultimately seeking for, seeking here is it's teams that trust one another, that this person, this leader, not only asks us to do this, takes these incredible risks for us, but is willing and able to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Uh yeah, I don't know if that's something that you've ever yeah, it it it is, and uh something I always said um when I when I did that course is that I would never ask anyone to go and do something that I would not have not done or be prepared to do myself. And by doing those courses and doing that training, and yeah, like you say, every I might not be the first person on the door, I might not be that that person going first into that building because I can't be, um, because it would be heavily frowned upon. And um I I think I'd probably be dragged over the coals by my seniors if something happened to me doing that. Um, however, um I I will do it in training. I'll I'll do it uh on a course. I'll uh if I can be on the ground during these sorts of operations, and I will do and play an active part. And uh I've always done when people say, Why are you here? I'll be like, Well, I'm not gonna ask you to do something I'm not prepared to do myself, because that would be really bad. So um, you know, and I I think that that does gain trust of those teams going, well, he's prepared to do it and he doesn't have to be out here. Um, but he's he's taking the risk that he might get injured, that he might get hurt doing this, but he's doing it anyway. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I I I think that that that absolutely screams um authenticity, it screams trust, uh, and it shows your people exactly what they need to see. You know, that I think I think that's something that a lot of senior leaders uh don't see the value in. So there's opportunities to do that, and they don't see the value in doing it sometimes through time, sometimes through fear of what they will look like actually trying to live with the the the younger people, live with uh the younger teams. Um, but actually that still makes them trust you more, even if they see you maybe a few steps behind them. That's okay, right? I again I've had experience where we took um we took uh he would have been a brigadier that um out on the ground in Afghanistan, and I think there's no there's no policy to do so. Again, you might people might have questioned why why he was coming out on the ground on a particular operation that he went on, and he was prepared to and actually loved him for it. But I mean, he you know, he wasn't certainly a few steps behind it, it'd been a while since he'd been on the ground, but I think that still engenders trust, hey, I've got a lot of time for this guy because he's still willing, able, and prepared to get involved and roll his sleeves up. And I think that's what workforces, that's what high-performing teams need to see from their absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

So, I mean, it doesn't stop at my level. So, my my old boss, we we had to there's an element within our that we used to be within our maritime training where it was a bit of a bottle, a bit of a bottler. Um, you had to you had to jump off the quite a high ship, off the side of a ship into into the the sea, and uh it was a bit of a bottle, a bottle thing. And um uh my boss turned up and he's like, right, I'm doing it. So it was like, okay, right, didn't have to do it, it could have just stayed down there and done. And the majority of them do uh quite seen these at the time, had kind of stayed um on like a safety boat and just watched peep watched the PCs and the sergeants and the inspectors do it. It was like he was like, Well, nope, get me get me a suit, I'm doing it. So um he went up and did it, you know, and it's that sort of thing. Um that the kind of uh they're like, right, okay, let's let's let's crack on. Yeah, they see, well, if he's doing it, you know, why can't I I should definitely be doing it?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

I think it says I think it says a lot about leadership. Um I'm I'm I'm toying with telling the story about jumping out the back of CH 47 with David Cameron, who the same wanted to do that in into the water. Um, I've said it now. So we yeah, we we did an exercise with where David Cameron came along, see what we're doing. He wanted to get involved, and again, he was like, uh, can I have a go? And it was like, No, not really, we're not settled for that, but come on, let's go do it. And he jumped out with his security team. Obviously, one of our guys was closely attached to him, but um, but yeah, it was uh fair play and respect to him for for getting involved. Um I think it says a lot about um uh a leader that's willing to you know do what he's asking his people to do, and I think that's ultimately what we're talking about here. Um, speaking of uh asking people to do what you you know you do yourself, um you were involved quite heavily in the Westminster attacks uh back in 2017. Are you prepared to go into that in a little bit of detail?

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah, so I was I was the um uh I was the on duty sort of ARV inspector at the time, and I'd only been an inspector so about six months. So uh and uh I worked on a huge arm response team in London that had two other inspectors, highly, highly uh experienced two other inspectors, two two others. Um that was the one day they took annual leave together, and I was entrusted. I was entrusted with London, I told them. I was entrusted with London, and uh it's the last time they ever did it because um they're on their sunbeds, etc. And they're looking at this going off and they're going, oh um, and um I I ended up sort of leading the the on-ground on the ground response in terms of firearms and tactical firearms uh commander. So I was a sort of senior rank on the ground, although not on the operation, my my seniors were back in um back in the command cell, but um yeah, I ended up leading the response to um obviously Keith dying being being killed.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Um can you give it can you give an overview of uh of it as in for people who might be like, well, which one's that? Because again, there's been quite a few attacks, right? And so you know what could you give the brief detail to Khalid Massood um on the 22nd of March.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Um he acted on his own, he drove a vehicle across Westminster Bridge, um, killed a number of people uh as he drove over that bridge, hit a number of people. Um they either died instantly um or were thrown into the water. There was a one lady who was thrown into the water, died two weeks later. Uh he then crashed the car, injuring a number of people, um, got out with a knife, ran towards palaces of Westminster, got through the gates and stabbed um PC Keith Palmer, um uh who eventually died. Um the sub suspect was shot by um armed officers inside there. And um, yeah, I ended up bringing a lot of armed officers down there because we thought there were lots of other things going on. There was a lot of uh misinformation at the time, uh as they normally are in these sorts of things, and a lot of casualties on that bridge and in the surrounding areas which we had to deal with. Um, so I ended up leading that and bringing it to a sort of resolution where we could hand over to counter-terrorist investigators um to pick up the sort of crime scene and um ongoing investigations.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Right, as a as a leader, like absolutely like chaotic event. Um, again, some experiences myself of what I describe as similar, um different but similar, but absolute chaos, uncertainty, um volatility, potential um other runners, there's ambiguity there. Uh, we talk about this VUCA environment, it's it's a clear VUCA environment, volatile, uncertain, chaotic, and ambiguous. And um leading that on the ground, you know, uh what was going through your mind? Can you can you share with us some of that?

SPEAKER_01 43:57

So I I think um when when I when I arrived, it was um uh it was just it was chaos. There was there was just bodies over the bridge, motionless, it was just bodies. There were members of the public trying to help, and there was a local hospital that were having a training day with surgeons and paramedics, and they tipped out thinking it was a car crash. So they'd run on there unprotected. It was an incredibly uh you know, incredibly uh brave thing of them to do, not running into danger, not knowing what they're running into, but trying to save lives. So it was a lot of people on the bridge, there was um people trapped under the car that he crashed. Um there was obviously Keith on dying. There was, you know, the the suspect, Khalid, and we still had a Article II, uh Human Rights Act obligation to to save his life, to administer first aid, which is quite a challenging thing to do when he's been the aggressor. Police have just shot him. Now they've got to save him. Um it's quite a big ask of if of a human being to do that, um, to switch like that really, really quickly. Um we also had the Prime Minister and uh protect the personnel because it was Prime Minister's questions times in uh in the Palace Westminster, and I had over a thousand tourists, thousand people in there as well. Um there was a lot going on. Um uh and there were I I was pulled in every single every single way. There was people trying to leave. Um, there was um you know, there was people on that bridge who we knew were deceased um and had quite significant injuries. Uh there are other people on that bridge who needed to get, we needed to get them away uh to to try and save their lives, you know, to get them to an ICU in a hospital. Um there was potential IDs in cars. Um I the airframe from London Air Ambulance, and unfortunately they didn't know they'd landed right next to what we thought was an IED. Um so that would that would could have gone horribly wrong. Um it was it was really challenging um for me because I'm I'm there to deal with the firearms command element of it, but because there's so much going on in such a big area, I was having to pick up the other sort of um sort of major incident, critical incident command as well. Uh and it there was a lot going on. Um I was very fortunate that the operational firearms commanders, so sergeants and PCs who turned up were awesome. So I could just delegate, I could give them a task, go, right, you look after that bit, I'll look after this bit. There was another inspector that turned up and I was like, right, back to back, you've got this bit, I've got that bit. Um, and I'm very, very fortunate that my the the command cell in um the special operations room, um, um just some distance away were exemplary, though they were absolutely all over it. Um, anything I needed, they provided me with. And I didn't realize how hard they were working for me. I felt quite alone because I was the only guy of that rank there, uh, the only person of that rank. Um, I felt alone, but I couldn't have been more supported by what they were doing. My team essentially were just working somewhere else, busting their guts to to make it happen. Um, so it was really challenging, but I was very fortunate with the everyone who was around me. Um, I couldn't have asked for anyone better, really. They were they were really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

How did you the complexity, the number of things occurring? So have you got some in in your reflections, certainly at the time, just how did you deal with the the volume of things that you had to deal with? Was there anything that you've thought or learned from that?

SPEAKER_01 47:25

I I think it was obviously prioritizing. Um we had work in the police to a working strategy uh and set it event police firearms operations and um we'll list what is the most important thing in that in those lists. So it might be minimise risk to um members of the public, minimise risk to casualties, then it will work all the way down, it'll include emergency services, it'll include maybe suspects as well, and then there'll be the things around right, we're gonna secure and preserve evidence in the in the area, you know. So the crime scene is probably the last thing I'm thinking about, um, because there's the ongoing threat of we don't know what's happened here. Um so it was I work to that list, and when you work to that list, um it's sort of all it no matter how complicated the situation, it kind of funnels into your priorities. It's like, right, I need to make sure that bridge is clear so I can get medics up on there um to treat and get those people away. I need to clear the palaces Westminster to make sure there aren't any more um terrorists in that building. I need to get the P Prime Minister and the Protected People away because that might be what they're after. Um so I need to remove them from the equation. So once you work your way through that list, and I've done so many training exercises, um, and I know this is cliche because a lot of people say it, and you hear us it a lot of time. Yeah, it just it just went like training took over, and it it was almost like that. And and two weeks before that, I I'd done a training exercise up at Hornchurch in Essex, and we'd had an abandoned hospital that we had a similar situation occur in. And we'd so we'd already rehearsed it. Um so when it came to it, it felt like that training exercise again, and um it but there was bits around so innovation around the command structure, stuff like that, that we made on the day on the training exercise because what we were using didn't work, and that what that those bits of innovation about command structure, I thought, right, well, I'm gonna use them in this, and it worked, it worked brilliantly. And you know, I've gone on to sort of give lots of presentations on this, and that's one of the things that's been exported is you know, just think outside the box. Um, but yeah, so that working strategy, working through that list kind of prioritised and brought everything that I need to do together and delegation, just trusting people to if I if I need them to do a task, just get on and crack on and do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

And and this this list that you were working through, just for my own uh thoughts, really, was it a physical list that you had on your person, or was it is it in your mind that so well drilled and rehearsed that it's in your mind? And the reason I ask is uh again, there's lots of lists in in my old world that once something happens, let's say a contact, a shootout, whatever, that there's a there's a process we go through now. We learn that process, but we've also carry the process on our person so that when things are truly chaotic, that we can refer to our checklist, have that condor moment, a bit old school, um, but have that condor moment, check the list and go, okay, yeah, of course. Let's let's do this now. And is that is that something you had as well on your personal or not?

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Yeah, so um we we we had I had loggists and we were writing, you know, we were accountable for decisions we make, certainly from the police, and um we had to log it. Uh and I I had some um body warm video on that there as well. So if it wasn't getting written down, it was getting recorded on there. Um, but there was just so much coming in that I couldn't write it down fast enough. So I was like, right, I'll keep a mental checklist and um I have a tactical advisor and I had another inspector there who was um who is a tactical forearms commander as well, and we would bounce ideas off. So we did we have something called national decision-making model in the in the police. Um, so it's a process, it's a continuing cycle, but and it starts with information intelligence. So as soon as I got a new bit of info, we do what we call spin the wheel. So we throw that in and be like, right, run through everything. Uh is what we're doing, uh, is uh what um what we're doing right now, is that the best thing to do? Is that the priority? And it's like, yeah, okay, well, we continue. If it's not, then we re chuck it back in the wheel and then we crack on. And every time we did that, if I wasn't writing it down, um, but I had that reference anyway. Um, like you say, you had that reference as well, that process. If I wasn't writing it down, then I was verbalizing it. Now I couldn't go back and play that back, but somewhere when this is all debriefed, people would see the rationale for what I was asking and doing, and the fact that I was checking it with an advisor and another colleague. So we were quality assuring it. So we had that luxury. I'm I'm you know, I'm not saying in Afghanistan you can stand there and do that because all hell's breaking loose, and you don't have that luxury to be able to stand there and do that. But in London, I mean I I had that luxury and um it it you know it was using it like that. So, yes, I had that process to refer to on paper, but because of the sort of cadence and dynamics of the situation, things just kept cropping up. Um, it was a case of right, we're gonna have to do this verbally. And at the moment, I I feel um, I feel that I'm not able to do this. I'm gonna have to slow things down, we have to slow down what we're doing because we can't run away with ourselves, stop, put a train in motion that we can't stop, because ultimately we're gonna miss something, and not the worst case scenario is someone loses their life because of indecision or missed or something we've missed.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

I think I think there's there's absolute gold in what you're saying, and for people to understand again, you liken it to Afghanistan uh with a right smile on your face. No, it's exactly the same in the sense of yes, sometimes it is still that chaos continues for longer, but it's vital that the leaders, the commanders, the decision makers are finding that time to have that bit of clarity to go like what's the right thing to do in this decision, and that's exactly the same. And that might be the corner of a room, it might be the corner of a building, it might just be a bit of safety to go breathe, literally like now what? And having those decision models, having those lists, having the checklist, you know, this is the same in the aircraft industry, right? If there's a plane's uh uh got a problem that's gonna cause it to crash, they don't automatically do what they need to do, they get their list out, right? They go through this procedure because when things are chaotic, we we catastrophize, and so and our brains can take over. And so being slow in our thinking and clear in our thinking is sometimes the right thing to do, rather than just making that quick decision that if it's well trained, if it's well practiced, like you said, it's amazing. Coincidence, look or um planning, actually, that you do these such difficult training that prepared you for such difficult scenarios. And again, this is something I work with organizations that's saying train hard, fight easy. It's something a lot of big people will be familiar with, but are they really training hard for the most difficult scenarios they're gonna face? And again, in business we could say the same because when do you when do they find the time to train for really complex decision-making challenges that will present themselves? And again, you can fall back on that training if you've gone through the process.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Uh yeah, uh absolutely so uh I liken it too. Uh so the public order training that the the the the police do, um it's pretty realistic. Uh, you go to a training center, you get petrol bombs thrown at you, you get bricks thrown at you, you might have seen it um or experienced it. Uh, and um it it it's quite stressful on the individual. On the commander, the head commander there, it's very stressful because the plan is always going wrong. Nothing they do is ever going right. Um, they're constantly getting the plans getting changed, there's stuff turning up like this. And one of the best chief inspectors, uh uh a female commander who was down there, I saw her do it. It was absolutely brilliant what she did. It was all going wrong, everything's uh as was expected, everything was going to go wrong. I was coming to her with problems as like a one of her second in command. You had other inspectors coming to her with problems, and she'd be like, right, and she'd step backwards from us and she's a stand there, and she'd look at the map with a thing, she goes, right, that, that, that. And she'd go, Ed, come here, and like, right again. She goes, I want you to do this, that move there when I tell you to do this. It was like, Yeah, okay. And she goes, read back to me what you're doing. I was like, right, I'm gonna do this. She goes, Great, off you go, wait for the call. And she was brilliant, she would just step back immediately, physically step back, so she wasn't swamped, and just plan it. And uh, it was probably the best sort of um command in that sort of situation I'd seen. Um, and the only time I've ever seen it really that bad amongst training is like the the top and rights. Um, because uh and even then it the the the commander there, Chris, um is a very good friend of mine now. He he um he was superb. Uh and it was that take a step back, right? Like you say, the condor moment, think about it. Let's go. Um, and it is training, training to to the worst, worst, worst case scenario means that you can potentially deal with anything.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Um absolutely uh there's there's so much gold in that. Um I'd love to scratch around that a little bit more, maybe uh a little bit later on if we get a chance. But uh there's a few other areas I definitely want to get get into. The the the aftermath of something like that and the weight of responsibility of the leadership decisions you made, um, the investigation that I know the police by their very nature are incredibly good at, um, that is necessitates thorough investigation into what happened, what went well, what didn't go so well, and the key lessons that identify like how how heavy a burden was that period of time on you?

SPEAKER_01 56:43

Um so it was pretty it was pretty mental, if I'm honest. Um Keith, Keith was actually a friend of mine, and I didn't realise it was Keith that been stabbed. I knew someone had been stabbed, but I didn't realise it was Keith until I was stood over him. And the hems doctors are going, that's we can't really do anything more for him. And and that's when it and this is in the middle of the instant. This is in the middle of a live incident, and it's dawned on me as Keith, and I I knew him pretty well from we used to be medics together, and and uh we used to work on sister teams when I was on the sort of territory support group, so it did hit me. And for days afterwards, um, because we still had a job to do, um, you know, we could we couldn't I I couldn't take a time off. I I couldn't go because no one was gonna there wasn't really anyone couldn't come and replace me. And um I still had to go to work, you know. I I finished at whatever time in the morning, and then I was back on duty at 7 a.m. Um and it, you know, we worked all that weekend, and pretty much from then on in, I I didn't have a day off for about four months because this unfortunately was the first attack of many um that got increasingly worse, such as London Bridge, the Manchester Arena, etc., um, uh, and others, and across Europe, and people, seniors wanted to know what we'd done. So there was that debrief process. Everyone wanted to debrief. Um, so you know, it was from a strategic group to a tactical group to an operational group. We had to have massive debriefs. Uh, there was that organizational learning, there was that learn, and then it was not just within London, it was within the UK. So you have commanders um from across the UK, 43 police forces going, well, we want to speak to you because this could happen here, and it's true, it could happen anywhere. And um, and so it just went on and on and on. Um, and uh it was hard to deal with. And it was a friend of mine um who I've known for ages who saw me working on a day off, and he goes, You supposed to be on a day off, and I was like, Yeah, yeah, I am. He goes, And how long have you been working for? And I was like, Oh, yeah, I've been working a while. And he just came over and he turned, I remember what he did, he turned the monitor off. Uh and I was like, What are you doing? And he's gone, you're going home. He said, Uh you you're not right, mate, you're going home, and and that's it. Go home, take a day off. You know, uh, and this guy he wasn't having an inspector, he was a he was a constable, he was a PC, and I was an inspector, but I'd known him since I was PC. And um he says, You you this is burning you out, so go home. And there is that danger of burnout um with this sort of thing, uh, with anything, you know, and um especially with an event uh as it was. And yeah, he it at the time I was a bit I was a bit pissed off that he did that, but um, it massively helped me sort of reset. We talk about balance, and that helped me reset that balance um there.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

What what what and on Ed, sorry to interrupt. What I I hear as well in that is that that investment in teams, in trust, in that flattening of the organization where the PC, you know, the lowest rank in the police, not the lowest position for sure, but the lowest rank is can go to his inspector, turn off the turn, he's got so much relationship capital with you that he can turn off the monitor and say you're going home, mate, because you you're burning out. And so I've got so much respect for that, and that's because there's trust in these organ these a genuinely high performance team that has these um things in place that afford this kind of level of communication, and that's the benefit of having this um on the scale that you were seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Yeah, it is. I mean, I I was very good friends with with him. Um uh it I don't think anyone else would have come and done that. Um, but it was just he's he's a bit naked as well. So um he he you know, he it he'll just come in and say as he sees it, which is great, and it did. It was it was it was just what I needed, um, if I'm honest. And it kind of broke that that work cycle and sort of reset, hit the reset, and um made me sort of you know take that time out um after that incident. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Um I know sometime afterwards, not not immediately, but um sometime afterwards, um myself and uh Professor Andy McCann came to your workplace and we're talking about stress, we were talking about resilience, we're talking about how to manage this better. And I think some of well, hopefully hopefully most of it, but certainly some of it connected with you, and again, hence this conversation, really. But uh um can you explain that a little bit, how that affected you some of the information you um you received?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Yes, we had uh, I mean, that was a really great day. Um, everyone, the takeaway from that sort of day was a lot of people went away and thought more about their sleep, how they uh I know there's obviously the nutrition element and things like that, but effectively they're recovering for me. Um I'd I'd been the chief inspector in charge of those teams for about five, six months, and we were getting really, really busy. And that last year was probably one of the busiest years we've ever had. It's great to be busy, like we said earlier, but um, there's that point where you're teaching on the edge of being, you know, is overload max badwinth. And we would, I was I would personally was definitely against that, and I know some of the guys and girls were were certainly feeling it as well. Um, and for me, um, there was um the the heart, I think you and Annie brought up um uh a slide where there was um on the screen where there was a heart rhythm trace uh stability, yep. Yeah, studied of a senior officer in Afghanistan um who had to make critical decisions while he was out there, and it was it was just red, it was just dancing around in the red zone and it never dropped. And you were saying that even when he was asleep, it was still in the red zone. So his he thought he was recovering, and he might have been asleep, but his body's not recovering, he's still in that highly stressed state. And um, it was one of the PCs said to me, Um we were watching that, and he goes, I bet yours is a bit like that at the moment. And I went and I laughed and went, Oh, you're probably right. And I went away, and I know we spoke afterwards, and uh I went away and bought one of the heart rate monitors that Andy said about, and I did it for a week. Um I've got it as a birthday present. I did it for a week, and uh mine wasn't anywhere near what his was, but it wasn't in a good place uh for a week, and I do that throughout that year to test myself to see how I was doing. So, you know, technology is a wonderful thing now. We've got apps for everything, and it was easily accessible. And um, for me, as the year went on, the stress levels increased um and it crept up more and more and more every time I did this. Um and uh but I was so focused in just wanting to be at work and make sure everything went right and supporting the people that were working for me and all this sort of stuff that I was kind of neglecting that element. And um, I I also remember something else you said that I think it was, I can't remember the exact figure that it was you're 40% more likely to get a musculoskeletal injury if you are really stressed. And I ended up getting uh injured um just uh in the training exercise, and that then just carried on to a more um sort of serious injury towards the end of the year, beginning this year, that really made me physically it was like, right, you've got to stop. Um, you've got to just that circuit break, you've got to stop now and really consider what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

Absolutely. We uh we talk about what work hard and we're all about working hard for sure, um, but recover harder. And I think it's the definitely the area that most people know about, but still neglect because for whatever reason, culture, the way society kind of uh cannibalizes sleep. Um but again, I I know exactly what you're talking about, the parts of the workshop that we ran. Um, and it's great to know that it it connected because again, I I was someone in my old career also, and I get I hope this is the value of uh uh Andy and I doing it together in the sense of I used to think I was a superhero too. We could work all day and night and then just get a little bit of rest and then perform again back to back. And you know, you'd speak you spoke earlier about you know not having a day off in four months. Again, when again people might say that's outrageous. Why on earth would you do that? Well, when when the job and the responsibility you feel is so purposeful, getting time off isn't the issue. It's it's actually well, it is the issue, but the focus is just trying to get done all what we did. We deploy for six months, we wouldn't take a day off. We get rest and recuperation uh uh R and R when we got back because uh it was well needed, as it turned out, and there's a chance to reset. But motivating ourselves to get done what needed to be done wasn't the issue. It was almost being able to dial that back because of the purpose. Um one of the things that always impressed me, Ed, and you know, and again, through some of the workshops that I've done with your organization and organizations and I always used to think about my old world versus your old world, and there was this slide I don't know if you can remember that we used to use with kind of nine or so images of different jobs. Um yourselves would be on there, there'd be football managers, there'd be high court judges, there'd be doctors and surgeons, etc. And and talk we talked about stress and who had the most stressful job, etc. And um, I'd always put myself in the same bracket as yourselves with um, you know, going into uh a high threat situation on operations um came with challenges, but it wasn't that stressful as I became more trained and proficient in it because of the training and proficiency that I had and the trust I had of the team around me. The things that used to really stress us out was the stuff outside of work going on at the same time. But when I reflected on it, working with yourselves, we'd go away for six months and had you know short periods of time sometimes, but have some control over when we interacted with those other things. With yourselves, it was this daily switch from potentially intense situations and then every single day or night going home. Boom, at the end of your shift and making that transition on a daily basis, flicking that switch on a daily basis. Is there anything in your experiences and your time, serve, that you've kind of come to help with that? Because I know a lot of the senior leaders that we work with really struggle with that switching between work pressure and home pressure. And again, I can't think of an environment more extreme than yourselves where you're flicking that switch on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

So I used to really struggle with that. And I think definitely in COVID it got worse because you physically used to attend a workplace and then you'd physically leave that workplace. And I think you were checking out, although you might, you know, you're on call, et cetera, you physically were checking out from work and then you were going home or you're meeting friends in town or whatever you were doing. When it came to the pandemic, a lot of people were working from home. So you're not leaving the office. You're not properly leaving the office, you're still at home. A lot of routine went out the window. And like you say, when you're going up that sort of uh hierarchy, there's less and less people to contact other people they can contact. So for me, there was only one of me in my position, um, when I was sort of in charge of those teams. So everyone will come to you. Now, they might, you know, they might not be getting um too many phone calls and stuff, but I was getting messages in the middle of the night, you know, in the day, my days off, um, when I was on holiday, all that sort of thing. But I'm not gonna tell them to go away because I'm genuinely interested in what they've got to say to me. But that causes a lot of problems, you can imagine, in like home life and etc. If your phone's always going and you know, it's like you know you kind of mind is set with work, and it's something I really struggle with. And I found um certainly that uh so fizz was a big one. Fizz really helped me switch off. So I would do a phys session and uh uh I'd do a fizz session when I turned up for work, um, like I said with all the all the all the people, and I might do go for a walk or listen to a podcast or fizz session or or whatever at the end of the day, and that was me kind of checking out from work. Um that that was if I could, that was me check my sort of checkout from work. Um certainly, um, yeah, it it's hard, you know, not to wake up in the middle of the night and then worry about what you've got to do the next day and that sort of thing. Um, but uh I did I started listening to a lot of podcasts, nothing to do with work. So I'd listen to I listened to your podcast, I listened to that's all right, you're more welcome. Um and uh I listened to all the podcasts, and obviously they had a lot of them, they were very factual, but a lot of them had quite a lot of humour to them as well. Um quite a lot of dry humour, quite a lot of dark humour, and it was really, really good. And it's things like that would just make you switch off and you'd be lost in almost another world. Uh and and and I know some people have uh listened to white noise. Um, so there's a friend of mine listeners to white noise, other people listen to certain types of music. I think there's some uh playlists on like Spotify that help you sleep and things like that because the rhythm is um the beats per minute is uh the similar to what your rest and heart rate would be when you're asleep on average. So things like that. Um yeah, definitely. And um I think also making time um for friends and family, um, doing more stuff outside of the police and do outside of work makes you check out mentally uh and sort of planning the time off that I I should be taking and making sure I did take it. So those those sorts of things help me check out, but it is more diffic is definitely more difficult the further you go up the chain because everyone wants to talk to you and the fewer people they can speak to. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

No, that's a it's a it's a great answer. There's lots of strategies out there. Um, and it's about trying things for you. Again, listening to the mating whale music, it's not for me, but uh I've never listened to that. I know there's a lot of uh there's a lot of things like that out there, but again, it's it's about creating a routine. Um, you know, again, as a parent, I always talk to people about we all know how to um create a great sleep routine for our children, and it's vital that we do so then as uh as an adult, we just completely cannibalize it ourselves and expect us to be able to drop off at the drop of a hat, you know, because we're exhausted, but it just doesn't work like that. And going back to the heart rate variability uh stuff that you mentioned and you saw people falling asleep just because of the amount of stress, cortisol, hormones flushing around people's bodies, their bodies cannot switch off until that's been flushed out, and there's uh things that you can do um around that. So, again, more than happy to anyone listening that wants some more information about that, more than happy to talk about it. Um want to start wrapping this up, Ed, but there's a couple of things I want to sort of talk about. Um, you know, focusing on leadership, like and leadership role models. Who yourself did you have as kind of you know, maybe one or a few people that you kind of really look to as great examples? Don't have to name them if you don't want to, but just kind of what were the qualities that these people had that really um impressed something on you?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Um so when I was lucky, like I've said throughout my career, I've I've I've had some incredible um some incredible leaders. Um two who stand out, uh a guy called Chris, who I'm I'm quite good friends with, we're very good friends with, and a guy called Jim, uh James, who's still in the police. Um they were one was explanatory, the the other one um wasn't, but they were both very just switched on. They seemed to be very, very chilled, but at the same time very professional. Um they would be out on the ground. So if you were if you were chasing after someone, they'd be there with you. Um they'd be running after them with you, or um, you know, if there was a fight, they'd be in amongst it with you, or that they'd also be, you know, if we were having like a debrief or a chill out or a beer, they'd be there with you. So those sorts of things are really, really good in terms of of leadership. Um I so one of them, and I mentioned my my little brother. So we also role models are all older than us. So my my little brother was in the Marines, and um he dealt with an incident in 2010 where uh it was pretty nasty and he got quite seriously injured. Um he was the the troop officer, the young troop officer at the time, and um the it was the worst thing that could have happened. He was really badly injured, I think someone had been killed um in a big firefight, and they were in the middle of this huge ambush, um uh and a big firefight. And um he despite being injured, he led it and he got everyone out. Everyone, no, it's a team effort, don't get me wrong, it's not him on his own, but everyone got together and they they looked after themselves and they got them out. And I always say if I'm in a bad situation, okay, if he can do that, I can do this. So um, so although it's someone younger than me, and I'm not massively inflating his ego here, but um it is one of those it's just one of those things that if if they can do that, then I can I can crack this, you know, it's it's it's not too bit of an issue. So role modeling, I think, um definitely look to uh the people I've I've served with potentially some some people in the military. So um I was lucky when I was uh in the cadets to to to go on some courses down at um CTC uh around leadship uh and uh the um Britannia Royal Naval College um uh as well uh and um down at um HMS Rally. And uh there were people there who were you know that there were like guys who were like captains in the Marines who were running this course, this leadship course, and you you looked to them and um I know you I I certainly wasn't a leadership was not something I was I'm I'm I'm not saying professing I'm I'm great at all whatsoever, but it was definitely something I definitely wasn't good at growing up as very much an introvert. And I went on one of these courses, and it was a leadship course. I thought, right, it's again again, it's a weakness, I'm gonna go work it out. So I went on this course, and um it was day two, and we're on some muddy assault course in some trench filled with water. We've got to do this leadship task again, this log round and uh the typical log log sort of run. And this um captain just turned to me from the Marines, just tapped me on the shoulders, right? Ed, you're in charge. And I was like, All right, okay. And I've never been in charge of anything before of a team like that. And um, it was like, right, I'm gonna do what he does. So you know, it it was like that. It was it was really good, and it was things like you just look at your role models and and sort of um go, well, if they're doing it like that, I'm gonna do it like I want to be that guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:45

Um absolutely, I think uh I'm hearing a lot of kind of this this inner voice as well, like you mentioned. Um, what if my brother can do that? What what can I do it? And what Cresta de Dick said about um what will my dad do? You know, with me, it was always, well, if not me, then who? You know, these kind of little conversations we can have ourselves have with ourselves in the moment that kind of help us to role model uh and shape the right thing to do and guide us into the right thing to do. You know, we'll all just doing our best in that moment is is clearly the goal. Um the flip side of that coin is sort of bad examples, and and people easily, when I speak to them about this, think of the the bad examples, but not necessarily I don't want to you call anybody out far from it, but kind of bad leadership examples. But what it maybe what you learned from it um when you were witness to bad leadership.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

So I've I've been lucky I've not really had bad leaders. Um there have been some, don't get me wrong, but not massive amounts. And I've either heard stories from other people's experiences who've not been as fortunate as me in in sort of where they've landed with the police, or um I I've witnessed the uh the sometimes, and I look at and uh a lot of people come to this conclusion as well. They're going, well, I could do his job. They they they look at that, I go, I could do that a lot better, so I'm gonna do it a lot better. Um you know, or I would do it so much differently. So I'm gonna it motivates them, that negativity motivates them to step into that role and be better. And there are times when there's as as poor lead shit. I I've I've seen it, and um, I'm very fortunate where I've worked where we are very frank in debriefs, and I'm sure that was very um similar in your uh organization, your previous organization, um, where we can have those frank debriefs, and if something has not gone right or there's been a failing somewhere, then the person is is maybe called out or spoken to about it. And um it it's it's really good in that respect. Um yeah, for fortunately, not not prevalent, like poor leadership or bad managers, but they're either very quickly got rid of um or removed from post or or they quickly see where they've gone wrong, which is the better option. I'd rather I'd I'd far more respect someone who they do something wrong, they go, right, I'll take your feedback on board, I'm gonna be better, and then they go and do it and they make themselves better, because then I want to work for that person um because they they adapt and they overcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Yeah, absolutely. We we we we often are flawed into thinking that someone's job is easier than we envisage it to be, and then when we get into that role, then it can be just we understand a lot better. You've got to walk in people's shoes before we judge, really. And so I think that's um you know sage advice for anyone listening. Um, thanks for your insights. Um with all you've learned, Ed, through your journey so far. Like, how how is it that you unwind? What is it that we talk about work hard, recover harder? How does how does Ed unwind? Does Ed unwind?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:40

Yeah, I do I do unwind. I I absolutely love my Fizz, although I'm getting older, so um I'm starting to uh feel the effects of it um a bit now. But I I absolutely love my Fizz. Getting outdoors, I think, is a big one, uh, massive one. Certainly in the pandemic, it taught me getting outdoors is is a huge thing. Um family and friends, I think, just hang out with family and friends because I've neglected them uh certainly last year uh at my own cost. And uh I I feel you know you you only yeah, you only get these people for a certain amount of time in your lifetime, so you have to make the most of family and friends of just getting out and enjoying life. I think you can do something completely different from work, just get out and enjoy stuff because it's a big bad world out there. But yeah, I can't imagine what do you do for to um the same again.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:23

My my again, so um and I talk to people about this a lot. I mean, I I'm I quite like reading, you know, and if I can there's lots of activities again. I love my exercise. My concern sometimes is again, I'm working hard, I'm draining myself when exercise can be intense exercise, can also be a bit of a drain on the battery. So, exercise for me, also you know, me and my wife, we love to go for walks, and so we'll go outside and get get out walking. Often we do the school run, um, and then we'll just add a bolt or a walk around for 30 minutes onto that, just to kind of just schedule that into our day. And I think that's something that I've learned to do better is is I know that these things need to sometimes take a priority, these recovery periods. And but I also now have come to learn that I need to schedule these into my day. So my weekends, I am fortunate enough that I get control over this. Friday afternoons, I shut them off. Um, for mostly me and my wife or other activities, but what I call my third space things I like to do. And then also the weekend is for me, it's it's family time or friends time, and and I try and um try my very best. It's very unusual that I would be working a weekend. I think there's been one or two occasions in the last few years since I've left the military that I've chose to do something and it's been uh for for good reason, but or um or that you know to sacrifice that family time. This is you know crucial time for us, as well. Again, just as a family man, you know, we sit and eat dinner a lot of the time. What you spoke about on the gym floor, you you know, you go for social events with your colleagues, you know. For me, with my family, it's uh sitting down and having an evening meal or breakfast. Breakfast and evening meals are non-negotiables for me. We sit and eat together. And there's a lot to be said for sitting and eating and conversing with the people that you care most about, right? And it's something that a lot of people sacrifice, a lot of people in teams, if you're listening, you know, finding the time to eat together, it's something that's been with us for thousands of years. It's a really important time. Again, I think back to my time in the military and the time we were fortunate enough to get sort of various different canteens and messes where we could do that. Um, but also uh, you know, I I've penciling in now. I've got, you know, I don't have the same circles of uh from the military days, but I've got fret loc friends that I've had since my school days that, you know, fortnightly at least, we get together and have a have a working breakfast, and we just get that time together just to catch up with each other and and uh spend that time together. So, no, there's a number of things that I do for the recovery aspect. Uh clearly I prioritize my sleep as well. I can't I practice what I preach, but uh creating an online course so people could know more about it just because it it's I'm so passionate about it because it's something that I avoided for so long. But yeah, that certainly for me, that's that's what it is. Um, amongst other sort of activities. But uh finally, last question. Um, most of the audience listening, there they're avid learners, they're listening to it to try and get some insights themselves. So um maybe a book or a podcast that's impacted you significantly that you'd like to share, that maybe advise steer people towards?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:24

Um, yeah, so or book or podcast that's um impacted me. I would say there's a book uh I read about leadership uh recently. In fact, it's on the shelf behind me. I've got to get the author's name right. Uh it's Legacy by Jim James Kerr, and it's 15 lessons in leadership, and it's all about the New Zealand rugby team. And that is absolutely brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:47

Uh recommended no dickheads, no dickheads allowed. No, yeah, so no, it's a great book. Um, fortunate enough to meet to meet James, and he did some work with my old organization around uh recruitment video because he gets culture, he gets he understands it, and so the the all blacks are a great example of that. Having a few problems at the minute again, well that's probably one for another time, but um but yeah, so fantastic book. It's been on our uh our read list formerly. So uh no, thanks, thanks for that share. It's great. Ed, it's been a pleasure. I know you're a busy man, um, and um, but I truly value that. There's been some incredible insights, uh, and again, some of the personal ones I really especially value those. So thanks for your time. Um, and I know uh our listeners will get incredible value from it. So, Ed and Rude, thanks very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

Thank you very much.